Curse

Grim Lich · Nov 27, 2009, 08:03 PM // 20:03

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I think Dhuum only uses a Dervish model due to the Grim Reaper look (which I highly dislike seeing how Grenth also has the Grim Reaper look - come on, be a bit more original with the gods of death's looks).

Well if you look in the Underworld, we got Dhuum, Grenth, and the Reapers. They all pretty much look the same because they are all from the same place.

Now if the Reapers were created in the Underworld, this brings up and interesting idea; that maybe Dhuum created Grenth, as a follower of sorts. (Unless the Reapers are ghosts of people once alive, who just got promoted somehow)

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but it does raise the question of if the hooded pillars seen in the Crystal Desert and Vabbi are in the image of Dhuum.

I meant to go look at these and a pic, but I was going to ask you around where they are, cause I can't remember off the top of my head any statue that looks like that.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 27, 2009, 08:24 PM // 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Well if you look in the Underworld, we got Dhuum, Grenth, and the Reapers. They all pretty much look the same because they are all from the same place.

Now if the Reapers were created in the Underworld, this brings up and interesting idea; that maybe Dhuum created Grenth, as a follower of sorts. (Unless the Reapers are ghosts of people once alive, who just got promoted somehow)

I don't think Grenth was created by Dhuum - and besides, we don't know if Grenth even originates from the Underworld. On the Reapers, I think they were powerful spirits who aided Grenth, and were rewarded with more power - as the Reaper of the Twin Serpent Mountains says that Grenth gave him power over spirits, and the reapers share the same look at phantoms, which are known to be simple spirits.

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Originally Posted by Grim Lich

I meant to go look at these and a pic, but I was going to ask you around where they are, cause I can't remember off the top of my head any statue that looks like that.

Sunspear Sanctuary, Lair of the Forgotten, Forum Highlands for Elona; Augury Rock, Dunes of Despair (in the mission), Prophet's Path, and Diviner's Ascent at least for Crystal Desert.

draxynnic · Nov 28, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

So I don't think there is a lore connection between the Dervish and Dhuum - as Grenth at least overthrew Dhuum in the year 48 BE (if the scripture dates are truthful), and Dervishes were founded during the Shattered Dynasty Era (583 AE - 640 AE). A 600+ year gap.

That's what the official histories say. Do we believe them?

For a profession that didn't exist until five centuries after Abaddon was imprisioned, there are a lot of ties between Abaddon and the Dervish profession. At least one concept art shows Abaddon with a scythe. Dervishes are seen with similar frequency to other professions among Abaddon's followers, when if they didn't exist when Abaddon was imprisoned you'd expect the majority of Margonites at least to have already adopted other professions. One of the forms of the Apocrypha is a Dervish. And after Abaddon's fall, the profession of the Facet of Spirit is a Dervish - implying a connection between the power Kormir inherited and the profession.

With all this evidence, it seems to me more likely that the Dervish profession may have been suppressed along with all other knowledge that was connected to Abaddon - but when it was rediscovered during the Shattered Dynasty era with the ties between Abaddon and the profession (apparently) severed, the gods allowed it to flourish, parcelling up the Dervish's attributes in a similar way to how the Elementalist's are spread between the Five. And if Abaddon did have the patronage of the Dervish profession before his fall, it stands to reason that it's possible that Abaddon inherited it in turn from Dhuum.

Grim Lich · Nov 28, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

That's what the official histories say. Do we believe them?

For a profession that didn't exist until five centuries after Abaddon was imprisioned, there are a lot of ties between Abaddon and the Dervish profession. At least one concept art shows Abaddon with a scythe. Dervishes are seen with similar frequency to other professions among Abaddon's followers, when if they didn't exist when Abaddon was imprisoned you'd expect the majority of Margonites at least to have already adopted other professions. One of the forms of the Apocrypha is a Dervish. And after Abaddon's fall, the profession of the Facet of Spirit is a Dervish - implying a connection between the power Kormir inherited and the profession.

With all this evidence, it seems to me more likely that the Dervish profession may have been suppressed along with all other knowledge that was connected to Abaddon - but when it was rediscovered during the Shattered Dynasty era with the ties between Abaddon and the profession (apparently) severed, the gods allowed it to flourish, parcelling up the Dervish's attributes in a similar way to how the Elementalist's are spread between the Five. And if Abaddon did have the patronage of the Dervish profession before his fall, it stands to reason that it's possible that Abaddon inherited it in turn from Dhuum.

Even looking at the skills, one can see that they are pretty evenly distributed around the four gods, which makes me wonder how Abaddon's dervishes worked? Obviously the Margonites used regular skills and not monster skills because that would be too much work to make a ton of new skills, but otherwise how could they use skills that are connected to the other gods.

Makes me wonder if the original dervishes form skills would turn them into the margonites we see now, of course that doesn't make sense because they turned liked that after Abaddon was outcast, but it would be a cool idea either way. (GW2 Form anyone :P)

Last thing that wonder now, is if Grenth got the power over Ritualists from Dhuum or from Abaddon. Now the latter doesn'tmake sense at first, but seeing how Dhuum was more intrested in permenatly destroying everything, instead of turning them into spirits, I can't quite believe he supported the ritualist prof.

Konig Des Todes · Nov 28, 2009, 04:48 PM // 16:48

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

And if Abaddon did have the patronage of the Dervish profession before his fall, it stands to reason that it's possible that Abaddon inherited it in turn from Dhuum.

This is the only case which I disagree with. Not only is there no support for Grenth taking water from Abaddon (that is all player speculation, for instance take the Scriptures of Grenth - he is shown having ice quality right there, and that is dated 48 BE), but there is no knowledge of how the powers of one god would move from one to another without killing the gods - which seems to be just a one to one scenario (mind you, no knowledge doesn't mean it cannot happen, but the only support is a speculative case which contradicts lore).

Just because one god uses a scythe and hood (by the way, we see multiple Mesmers, Necromancers and Assassins with hoods), and another god that has potential links linked to a profession (Abaddon also has links to the Paragon profession), doesn't mean that one took the whole profession from one to another.

In fact, the only thing which links Dhuum to the Dervish profession is the looks and weapon - no dervish like skills - and the looks and weapon is just a reference to the Grim Reaper. Along with this, the dervish profession shows no link to death or Dhuum in any way shape or form.

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Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Last thing that wonder now, is if Grenth got the power over Ritualists from Dhuum or from Abaddon. Now the latter doesn'tmake sense at first, but seeing how Dhuum was more intrested in permenatly destroying everything, instead of turning them into spirits, I can't quite believe he supported the ritualist prof.

Why do the Ritualists need to come from any god? Or any profession for that matter. Could Grenth not have just created the Ritualists? Could the Ritualists not have sprouted up in Cantha on their own? Afterall, the Ritualist profession predates magic.

Linking them to Dhuum makes no sense, as Dhuum dislikes undead and resurrection (limited death magic anyone?), and it would only make sense that the reasoning is that he hated the return of spirits to the mortal realm - so summoning spirits from the spirit realm as Ritualists do wouldn't make any sense.

Also, where does it say Dhuum was interested in permanently destroying everything? That was a false interpretation from his names. The reason why death would be changed forever is due to the lack of undeath and resurrection. Death would be permanent, no take-backs. The names like the Ender of All, the Omega Death, Death Inevitable, etc. can be linked to this one fact.

The only names which we have yet an explanation for is "The Mouth at the Edge of Darkness" and "The Voice in the Void" to be honest.

Grim Lich · Nov 28, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

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Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Also, where does it say Dhuum was interested in permanently destroying everything? That was a false interpretation from his names. The reason why death would be changed forever is due to the lack of undeath and resurrection. Death would be permanent, no take-backs.

Yeah that's what I meant.

I'm confused by what you mean about rits predating magic, do you mean the practice or the full fledge ritualism we see today's Rits do?

Also I got to say, that though hoods are semi-common, Hoods + Robes + Scythes is pretty much limeted to dervishes. The outfit is supposed to show their humility to the gods right? And yet it matches straight up with a previous (I'm hesitant to say evil) god. I just find it odd.

Also just noticed this. Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's just the picture, but in the following picture it kind of looks like the skull face is a mask that Dhuum is wearing, and you can see a human like chin underneath the mask's teeth.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/gw...d/d9/Dhuum.jpg

If so, what does that mean? I hav absolutly no idea. Does kind of remind me of Grenth though. (body of a man, visage of a beast)

Konig Des Todes · Nov 28, 2009, 07:31 PM // 19:31

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Originally Posted by Grim Lich

I'm confused by what you mean about rits predating magic, do you mean the practice or the full fledge ritualism we see today's Rits do?

To what extent is unknown, but the profession predates magic and then had its own magic powered by ancestors.

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Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Also I got to say, that though hoods are semi-common, Hoods + Robes + Scythes is pretty much limeted to dervishes. The outfit is supposed to show their humility to the gods right? And yet it matches straight up with a previous (I'm hesitant to say evil) god. I just find it odd.

Honestly, I think Dhuum's appearance is just to mimic the Grim Reaper. The Dervishes mimic real life's dervishes (if you take out the scythe).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Also just noticed this. Maybe it's just me, or maybe it's just the picture, but in the following picture it kind of looks like the skull face is a mask that Dhuum is wearing, and you can see a human like chin underneath the mask's teeth.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/gw...d/d9/Dhuum.jpg

If so, what does that mean? I hav absolutly no idea. Does kind of remind me of Grenth though. (body of a man, visage of a beast)

I don't see a chin.

Free Runner · Nov 29, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Having just come from the epicness that was the Dhuum fight, i managed to snag screens of the room and Dhuum himself afterwards.

First of all Dhuum (and yeah he doesnt seem to have a chin and that isnt a mask):

Dhuum in his sleeping state:

The room:

A pillar holding the room up. Holds the same Eye marking that many other UW structures have:

One of the 7 statues which i'm guessing resemble the Reapers (who are situated just infront of said statue)

A Reapers platform. These made me curious as the Reapers never leave them.

The same platform. It appears to have pipes comign from it making me wonder if the Reapers channel energy into them:

As for Dhuum himself his speech is very strange. Other than showing his obvious love for yelling (Caps Lock) he talks about himself in third person and in a very blunt manner. I was however wondering if he had this way of speaking due to having just woke up. It gave me the feeling he was a primitive god rather than civilised like the others are said to be.

The way the battle goes its obvious that we havent seen the last of him.

Grim Lich · Dec 01, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Ahh, much better pictures, thanks Freerunner. So yes, it was me/the pic.

Dhuum doesn't seem to have a lower jaw. Interesting.

As for the whole third person thing, the only thing I can think of besides what Freerunner said is that Dhuum's form is less of a God, and more of a force. This may make little sense when I try to explain but I'll try anyways.

The quotes seem to make sense if you think of Dhuum as a force instead of a single entity. Maybe Dhuum does not have a true physical form, but instead forms a body based on his surroundings (ie the Reapers and statues of Grenth) to fight the heroes, also if he grows stronger by each death, maybe those "deaths" become a part of him. "WITH EVERY DEATH, DHUUM GROWS STRONGER!" and "HOW CAN YOU HOPE TO VANQUISH DEATH ITSELF?" (though the other obvious interpatation on those lines is, well, obvious.

The only thing he says that contradicts that idea is: "DHUUM LAUGHS AT YOUR PATHETIC ATTEMPTS TO HARM HIM. HA HA!" Which unless they are talking about Dhuums form at the time, doesn't work well with the rest.

Either way, it's just a theory.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 01, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Personally, I am just thinking that Dhuum is a bit loony from a multi-hundred year solitude. Most humans go insane after a few month.

KageNoShi · Dec 01, 2009, 11:58 PM // 23:58

I'd have to agree probably insane and has developed quite a large ego during the time he's been locked away.

joshuarodger · Dec 03, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

after being isolated for a lengthy period of time, humans begin to talk to themselves and can sometimes use their own name in the conversations they have. even if someone finds them, it can still be a habit that is never broken. i imagine the same could be true for gods that don't have anyone to talk to.

draxynnic · Dec 06, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

This is the only case which I disagree with. Not only is there no support for Grenth taking water from Abaddon (that is all player speculation, for instance take the Scriptures of Grenth - he is shown having ice quality right there, and that is dated 48 BE), but there is no knowledge of how the powers of one god would move from one to another without killing the gods - which seems to be just a one to one scenario (mind you, no knowledge doesn't mean it cannot happen, but the only support is a speculative case which contradicts lore).

True, although while Grenth may not have actually taken the portfolio, he certainly seems to have taken over patronage of Water Elementalists. Which is fair enough, since most Water spells actually produce ice and cold - but not all of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Even looking at the skills, one can see that they are pretty evenly distributed around the four gods, which makes me wonder how Abaddon's dervishes worked? Obviously the Margonites used regular skills and not monster skills because that would be too much work to make a ton of new skills, but otherwise how could they use skills that are connected to the other gods.

Interestingly, not the same four as control the Dervish attributes...

There are two explanations, really. The first is that the skills (apart from avatars) that are named for a particular deity are just named such because that's what humans call them, and that those skills don't actually rely on calling on that deity's power (this argument could apply to all professions, really), while avatars could have been something that developed later... or even be something Abaddon allowed when he still got on well with the others.